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Infrogmation of New Orleans It was the summer of when two Michigan State University students, "Nathan" and "Melanie," agreed to meet up and have sex. More than two years later, MSU found Nathan responsible for sexual misconduct—in accordance with Title IX, the federal statute interpreted to prohibit sexual harassment on college campuses—because he had waited for the wrong moment to initiate the encounter. What exactly happened between the two students? Bridge 's Laura Berman has a terrific write up of the case here , based on transcripts of interviews and MSU's case files.
According to Berman, Nathan and Melanie began casually dating in October She was a freshman, and he was a sophomore—and a virgin, until they started having sex initiated by Melanie. Their relationship wasn't perfect: Melanie wanted to feel closer to him emotionally, he wanted something more casual and also told his friends that she "bullied" him, according to Bridge.
In May of , during summer vacation, they decided to meet up and hook up somewhere off campus. When they reached the rendezvous point, they started having sex in Nathan's car. They were soon noticed by a bystander and had to stop. She cried, and said she had a flashback to an earlier, abusive relationship in high school. Nathan tried to comfort her, but she described her tearful reaction as distressed, "extremely upset.
He recalls listening sympathetically. She remembers him dismissing how upset she was, and called his reaction "invalidating. Eventually, they sat down, his arm around her.
A few hours earlier, they had been interrupted trying to have sex in a car. She says she told him she didn't want to have sex again that night.
This time, he reached beneath her shirt and bra, in what he later described as "a momentary touching of the breast," and she characterized in a text the next day as "a groping. Nathan was never violent with Melanie, she admitted in interviews. And though MSU officials later claimed that Nathan pushed her down and pulled up her shirt—based on what is anyone's guess—Melanie flatly rejected that assertion. He had tried to resume sexual contact by touching her breast, which was something she hadn't given explicit permission for him to do at that exact moment.
They stopped seeing each other after that. Melanie felt betrayed because Nathan had tried to have sex with her at a time when she was talking about feeling abused. About a year later, Melanie began taking hormones in order to transition to a man. She changed her name and started identifying as a man. She plans to eventually undergo gender reassignment surgery. Her transition was one of the reasons she decided to file a Title IX complaint against Nathan, 16 months after the incident.
Because of an internal error, Nathan was initially judged in accordance with MSU's updated Title IX policy, adopted after the incident, which was more explicit about the need for affirmative consent. When the mistake was realized—the university can't hold Nathan to a standard that wasn't in place at the time of the incident—his case was re-heard. The result was the same: Nathan was found to have violated MSU's sexual misconduct policy. The university put him on probation and prohibited him from having contact with Melanie, but did not remove him from campus.
He was eventually able to graduate. That's the short version; read Bridge for more details. Nathan maintains his innocence: He says Melanie never specified that sex was off the table after they were interrupted in the car.
He thought, based on the cues he was receiving, that Melanie was still interested in having sex. Evidently he was mistaken in this belief. But that's the whole problem with asking university bureaucrats to play relationship police in complicated and ambiguous scenarios.
To avoid a finding of responsibility, Nathan essentially would have had to convince them that Melanie's complaint was completely unreasonable and his actions were perfectly fitted to the situation. In cases like this, it's difficult, if not impossible, for the accused to prove his innocence. We can be sorry about Melanie's pain, and advocate for the university to provide her whatever help she needs, without making Nathan's life miserable because of a missed cue that led to fleeting contact.
This case is a perfect example of why the Trump administration should rein in the Education Department's Office for Civil Rights, the agency that advises universities on Title IX compliance. Restoring due process and the presumption of innocence to college campuses should be a paramount goal of Education Secretary Betsy DeVos, assuming that she is eventually confirmed.
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Comments do not represent the views of Reason. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Hey, Nathan and Melanie was my father's name and he was as simple and decent a man as any one could know. All we need to do know is search for freshmen virgin females at Michigan State in the fall of who now identify as men. Shouldn't be that many. I have never suggested this to any sentient being, be they human or otherwise, yet here I am suggesting this to you and you alone with specific regards to your comment Everything happens for a reason at the exact correct moment in SugarFree's stories.
Regardless of my desire for "BestUsedCarSales" to personally find proof that the assertions he or she made were clearly incorrect, I behaved like a lusus naturae. Hamster of Doom 1. It buggers the imagination why anyone is paying five-digit sums every semester for universities to make their children insane and label them rapists. Your use of the word 'insane' is perfectly appropriate.
This whole sordid affair sounds like something that happened in an asylum. None of that is the business of a university. Their job is to teach classes. All of the rest of that is the job of cops, hospitals, courts and counselors.
That's a novel way to describe the creeping nanny-statism and kangaroo courts. Paul Nungesser probably didn't know what he was "willingly" paying for until it was too late. But Suthenboy was responding to Robby's assertion that Universities ought to provide Melanie with "whatever help she needs". And responding to you, I'm saying that in the category of "extra services to those willing to pay for it", there's all sorts of services that get crammed down people's throats without their say-so.
As a customer of a university, I decide where to go to school or where to send my kid to school based on things like "quality of department X, Y or Z" or maybe for the prestige of the degree, or maybe for the affordability or whatever else.
What does not necessarily factor into one's calculus is the existence of a tyrannical Gender Studies Department or how that school typically handles sexual assault or whether they do at all and the standards of proof that would be used when my son is accused of sexual assault. I grant that such factors ought to be considered by parents and students before selecting a school, but it's perfectly reasonable for a person not to have considered every little ancillary "service" that might in some circumstance stand athwart of my kid getting a college education.
I don't mind if the school has counselors available as long as said counselor didn't march in DC last Saturday. If they're willing to itemize "Extra fee for women who cry themselves to sleep when the guy doesn't respond to the texts the day after they have sex," then sure. Let people know where their money is going. I kind of doubt that is going to drive up enrollment numbers though.
Why is it dumb to think that universities don't really need to have all of that ancillary crap? It's not like they're itemized on your tuition bill with an opt out option. Not if the service entails legitimizing Melanie's insanity. Sometimes the truly kindest thing you can do is to tell somebody they're wrong. Melanie fits that model. If "Melanie" is willing to pay to see a school therapist by all means that's fine. God knows 'she' sounds like she needs one. But I suspect the therapist knowing university therapists would be liable to encourage her little complex where she imagines she was egregiously assaulted and Nathan is a monster.
The appropriate help is putting her on the locked psych ward where she is less likely to harm herself and others,. Surrounding her with a few actual grownups who aren't morons might work better. The article has ever so many people whose job it is to pathologize this young woman to conform with their confirmation bias.
There doesn't seem to be a single adult who understands healthy interactions and gives a damn about her, though. I'd encourage my son to pursue a career in cocaine trafficking before I'd encourage him to attend an American university. Not to mention that, you're striving to generate the functional equivalent of a man with a questionable ability to distinguish having sex and inflicting trauma. I'm not trying be belligerent, but I don't understand your point.
What does "generate the functional equivalent of a man with a questionable ability to distinguish having sex and inflicting trauma. I understand all of those words, but I can't for the life of me understand what they mean when they are put together in that sentence. Are you asserting that she filed a Title IX case against Nathan for the property damage she incurred?
This is the conundrum men find themselves in because they want the pussy. Never stick it in crazy: Trshmnstr, Grump Apprentice 1. I tried telling my friend this after he got divorced, and he had none of it. It's obvious she's been pickling in SJW propaganda - probably from the first day of classes. I've never had an awkward run in with an ex before. Clearly someone needs to preemptively punished to ensure that I never have to deal with this potential encounter.
Jesus, are you serious? You're one lucky, or one relatively celibate, man./p>
Men spend a LOT of time talking about girls and how to get them. Did you know Did you know 1 in 5 women and 1 in It's October now, and cuffing season seems to be starting up right on time. Going on dates and meeting new people is always exciting, but How do we deal with loneliness? As the winter seasons roll around, Barbie teaches us on how she handles these emotions. I thought I was alone in feeling out of place in this modern-day college dating scene.
Between all of the unspoken rules, unclear relationship statuses and attempts to mix traditional and new ideals, modern dating has come to Skip to main content. Love At First Swipe: Dating in the 21st Century A couple meets at a laundromat back in the 80s, as both are waiting on their loads of laundry to finish, they strike up a conversation I was interested in auditing that class but then I found out that instead of using a word processor or even a pen, all manuscripts were supposed to be written in nothing but bodily fluids.
Some things are just unmasturbateable. Hard as it is to wrap your mouth around that concept, it's true. That's not true at all. The mere fact that there are things I can't wrap my mouth around necessitates that I masturbate to it.
Have you tried yoga? It takes a bit of stretching, but autofellatio is totally possible, just really uncomfortable. And in important news from the land of grown ups: But at least those poor saps have insurance now. Let's focus on what's important here.
Why is there such an insistence on facts by so many commentators here? I mean gee whiz, facts can't compete with feelz. I just watched that with my family who hadn't seen it this weekend. I kept thinking how similar Inigo Montoya looks to Saul from Homeland. Turns out, same actor. I'm binging Homeland on Hulu, started last week. First time I saw it. Melanie's about to find out that changing to a guy doesn't stop him from being a cunt-faced little bitch.
How much time and money were wasted dealing with an emotionally disturbed person's ridiculous drama? The Late P Brooks 1. Why should I give a fuck? We can stop worrying about global warming. The human race will die out long before the seas rise and the land is scorched. Well, Melanie obviously has a lot of issues. She claims she was sexually assaulted as a child, and she has some gender identity confusion.
All of that is completely separate from her fake rape accusation. We can be compassionate towards her real problems without condoning her false accusations. Meh, I can feel sorry about a war veteran who watched his friends die in a pointless war and now can't find a job. Once he starts he starts publishing screeds about killing all the Jews, my sympathy tells him to suck a dick, then self-defenestrates. We may also remain incredulous, as people who lie about being raped tend not to be credible sources about whether they have been raped in the past.
Sadly, I'm not sure this is an issue of how he phrased it. I think the f'ed up reality is that the kangaroo courts, established by ridiculous interpretations of Title IX, simply don't give a crap about quaint relics like presumption of innocence. Instead, they genuinely seem to be operating an extra-legal system where the general concepts of due process do not apply. I'm seriously having a problem understanding why college guys even bother to try to have sex with women anymore.
It seems like an incredible minefield to walk nowadays. So ass-rape your male roommate. I bet there's still enough of a stigma attached to that that it'll be at least a decade before guys feel comfortable going public with that sort of complaint.
I mean, what guy doesn't want to have sex? Add alcohol and she doesn't even have to be remotely attractive speaking for a friend. I suspect that is how it worked with Melanie-Mel. Beer goggles as thick as A lot of it is that we get bombarded by these stories and it seems insanely prevalent, but for every story we here like this, a , people fucked in the alley behind a dorm.
I am sore afraid for my nephew who wants to go to MIT next year. And to top it off, his mom has slowly become an SJW who takes all this campus rape shit as rote fact. I think the real question you should be asking is why is approval for legalized prostitution rising steadily in men aged R C Dean 1. It's the only thing Robby Horses got right in this sad tale of convoluted delusions, outright psychopathy, and pathologically conspicuous Comedy of Woe. Stopped clock, sun's gotta shine on even a dog's arse I'll stagger through work today and take a four day weekend to recover, courtesy of Australia Day.
This is the wattle, it's the emblem of our land You can stick it in a bottle, or you can hold it in your hand. Which isn't the case, as far as I can tell, for non-insane values of "rape". I assume the same goes for roller coasters, auto repair shops, and Denny's restrooms.
Somebody need to take College Administrators and Federal Bureaucrats aside and explain to them that Title IX does not take the place of actual criminal law. Preferable, with a tire iron. Most universities offer some basic health services including mental health services as a part of tuition.
There may be a nominal "health center fee" or something, but that's it. It seems like those should be two separate services. Educuation and mental health services should be two different bills. If someone wants to see a shrink while going to college, then don't make the otherwise well adjusted students pay for it.
That doesn't preclude some sort of campus therapist, but there should be something like a school nurse.
If you have a headache, they give you an aspirin, if you start coughing up blood, or your neighbor's dog is telling you to kill people, the they call And i'm the first to celebrate a marketplace full of choices.
No, enforce it as written. It was a pretty well-written law that helped ensure equal protection and equal access for all taxpayers , but has been perverted to mean whatever the fuck people want it to mean. In other words, it helped usher in a more severe era of the rule of man rather than the rule of law where plainly written laws were enforced as plainly written laws and not twisted into some decrepit corpse of what they were supposed to be.
Pretty sure this is covered in the commerce clause too. Except when it doesn't fit the narrative cough, health insurance across states, cough. This article didn't completely freak out at "Nathan's" obvious rapey intent? I thought this was just another cosmotarian SJW rag. C'mon Reason, if you're going to get lumped in with the proggie left by Trumpalos who just want every blog to validate their every feeling and impulse towards Trump, you should at least act like it! Meanwhile, there's a long NYT tearjerker about how Kansas State is being sued because they harbored a notorious serial rapist or some such nonsense, today.
Here's a little advice: And don't wait nearly two fucking years to do it. Hopefully Nathan will get over this. No man should live with the stigma of being the reason someone decided to tranny out of reality and completely into a fantasy world where biology is irrelevant. I remember my first encounter with this sort of nonsense 20 years ago.
I was listening to a girl tell a sob story about this horrible guy she dated. He asked me to go up to his dorm room to watch a movie. When we got up there, he didn't even have a VCR yeah, it was a while ago. He just wanted to have sex! I hope you didn't have sex with her. I hear they're revisiting the statute of limitations and it sounds like if you did, then you raped that poor woman.
Our progressive idiots will not be happy until most of us are consigned to a camp, for an indeterminate period of time, until "we adjust our thinking,".
Half the reviews are just women rambling 'OMG! I realized when I read this book that my ex or all my exes was a sociopath!
I mean, he had this totally sociopathic look in his eyes and left the toilet seat up, demonstrating complete lack of empathy like described in the book. I don't know how I survived. Or listen to almost any pop song by a woman. It's disturbing how many women have a hateful obsession with their exes and subscribe to bizarre conspiracy theories that their ex-boyfriends are sitting in their darkened bedrooms pleasuring themselves to the thought of having caused them emotional pain.
It's no wonder that this sort vindictiveness and persecution complex are so common these days. You sound like a typical bigot! When a dude is the height of his hormonal frenzy, around age 19, sticking it in often takes way more precedent than how crazy stick-ee is, or may someday become. Who knows, maybe Melanie was more or less hot as a girl, even thought she has since elected for hormonal and surgical mutilation. It's certainly understandable for a 19 year old male to stick it in crazy.
It's just a bad decision. It's almost as though the purpose of horny teens and twenty somethings is to teach all of us hard lessons about sticking it in the wrong person.
Let those people stand as examples to everyone else. I don't know why they don't just make a law banning poverty and solve everything, I mean sheesh. Stupid poors, if they just did this outside of town it'd be fine! Since we have inaugurated a Republican president, the media now have permission to catch up on 8 years of non-reports about The Homeless. No worries, I picked up what you're putting down. The rise in the homeless population has been an ignored issue for too damned long.
Now, instead of asking good questions about how all these wonderful progressive policies seem to fuck up the lives of an increasing number of poor people, we'll have to listen to wankers fuss about mean conservatives and demand more free monies for their good works.
Progressive policies also attract more homeless to your city. Who knows if there are actually more of them overall? The progressives announced their plan to only spend one trillion on infrastructure. With "nontraditional" projects to spend it on. I read that as roads paved by the homeless. I'm being if we slice the homeless thin enough we can pull in the spending for half a trillion. I'm gonna start a scholarship program for people to pay for sex workers while they're in college. It's not worth it to try to fuck your fellow classmates.
Higher Education is dominated by hyper-leftists. My son is a straight-A student that will probably get into any school he wants to. He's seriously considering becoming a deep-sea welder rather than an engineer. I won't try to convince him one way or the other. I just see far too much risk in any big school.
I hope he goes into something he enjoys! Go be a welder for 10 years while its fun and then go be an engineer. If he's flying into and out of Lousiana to weld on oil platforms, strippers and bar-girls will teach him everything he needs to know about crazy, and how to avoid it, without involving the cops. We have cousins that inter-bred with coonasses after my uncle got sent to work in Metairie.
I'm sorry, but I don't want my side of the family tree polluted like that. Reading this story, I realize my terrible guilt and complicitness in rape culture. Everyone on this thread ia obviously a sexual offender. I, for one, welcome my new Title IX Overlords. I am willing to be honest and admit that I stared at a women's breasts in Arizona in She was wearing a low-cut dress, but I realize now that there was simply no excuse for my transgression.
I will submit myself to the jurisdiction of Michigan State University. I have cleared my conscience. I suggest you do the same. There were mothers on message boards also amateur authors who thought I was the worst guy in the world, despite my claims that I was going to eventually highlight the downsides of such activity as well as the fun of intercourse.
Perhaps universities can "transition" away from the residential college model so that students can study online, perhaps while working real jobs, and their social life and, ah, eccentricities will be stuff they deal with on their own time.
As for the residential life officers, diversity coordinators, Title IX officers, etc - maybe they can transition to being gainfully employed people.
This kind of shit is commonplace. Ohio State had a football player get into a consensual relationship with his tutor even though it was against school policy.
So when the relationship ended, the tutor said she didn't feel comfortable around him in the athletic dorm and education annex where they both frequented. So the school suspended the football player for a semester and allowed the girl to continue being a tutor, consequence-free.
Urban Meyer even complained publicly about it, which is rare for a coach to do when the university disciplines a student. That kid, Torrance Gibson, has since lost a year of college eligibility and has transferred to Cincinnati. For having a purely consensual relationship with a willing participant who later felt like ruining his football career for her consequence-free comfort.
Sorry, but if you wait more than, oh, 30 days at the outside to report, then your report obviously doesn't have anything to do with what actually occurred, but on something that occurred subsequently. Do you even know triggering, bro? That shit can take weeks, months, even years to happen to someone That shit can take weeks, months, even years to happen. And if my sear takes more than a nano-second to trip after I pull the trigger, something's badly wrong.
It's even better than that. The accuser can have a faulty memory of the event because the trauma has clouded it But if the accused says he was wearing a red shirt and later says it was maroon, he's lost his credibility and his remaining testimony can be taken as unreliable. It's pretty funny and terrifying.
Even in the sixties we knew better than to sleep with someone crazier than yourself. I hope this kind of madness makes it to the top of Trump's list of crazy federal regulations to get rid of by the middle of next week. The madness reveals itself. They say that "no means no". But evidently stopping immediately at the first "no" is not enough. The biggest issue here is that real women cannot engage in a conventional relationship, because no male in his right mind is even going to say hello.
You're 20 years out of date. The new one is "yes means yes. Today rape is like a male-only version of original sin. We're all necessarily guilty. Any suffering incurred, no matter how false the accusation, is justly deserved in some sense; the only injustice is that some men out there actually go their entire lives without ever being punished.
The worst part of this story is that Nathan walked along the train tracks listening to Melanie talk for an hour or longer. That sounds absolutely horrible to me. He should receive sainthood, not censure. Chip the Chipper 1. I think the only solution to all of this "affirmative consent" BS is to go do away with coed campuses and only allow escorted guests of the opposite gender during daylight hours.
They must also wear a burka anytime they leave the campus, so as not to draw unwanted attention of potential rapists. These things would get tossed right out of criminal court, and that is where it should be tried. The school is far from impartial and seems to always label the man a sexual predator. Perry de Havilland 1.
Anyone having sex with anyone in a US university in the current lunatic environment is a fool. Indeed anyone going to a university in the USA is probably an fool given the carnival of absurdities that passes for 'normal' these days.
All sorts of fucked up. People have lost their fucking minds. And no, I don't feel sorry for Melanie's "pain. Filing a complaint in this type of case is fucking criminal. And punishing the accused is even more fucking criminal. According to a reTweet from a teary-eyed liberal today, the entire Office of Civil Rights at the DOE is on the chopping block, a list of 17 to be gone or defunded.
Is that the Department of High Energy? Campus feminists are flat out insane. And this is just not a millenial thing. Campus feminists have been irrational for decades when it comes to issues of drinking, sex, emotional fragility. But I gotta say, some of these cases are getting to be absurd right now. I just dont understand how the college can be immune from regular laws.
Doesn't this guy have recourse in a court of law to what is happening to him? There has to be something unconstitutional about this. Remember the guy who was molested by a chick when he was passed out in some college and he was charged with rape by the college!!!! This whole Title IX nonsense must go Any female attempting to willingly engage in sexual intercourse, then being interrupted by some outside event, unless she gives CLEAR signals she is not interested in resuming some time later, is still "in the mood", as he rationally assumed.
When she finally DID make it clear she was no longer "receptive", he quit Have these prim and proper beasts never known a female to be the agressor, initiating or inviting such conduct? And WHY do uniertidy poohbahs have any authority to "judge" these things? Any crime, so defined, has clear requirements. Title Nine is about as clear as the mud creek after a gullywasher.
Seems as though the goal of going to college has changed from education to trying not to get kicked out. My son was falsely accused of a felony by the police at his university. He was wrongfully arrested, handcuffed, and shackled. Charges were eventually dropped, and his record was expunged, but a lot of damage was done in the meantime.
So much for that career path. Worse, his university discipline record still stands, and future employers and schools can gain access to that record. Universities don't have to follow the same guild-lines as criminal courts. Large universities have their own police force and discipline departments, whose job is arrest children and prove they've committed a crime. You know that Ethics department? That's a nice word for the Discipline Department, and to justify their existence they need to churn kids through their system.
Melanie filed the complaint. Melanie was triggered by the event: Still, his transcript notes that he was guilty of an unspecified sexual offense. I have very little doubt that their names aren't something like "Keegan" and "McKenna". Everything happens for a reason at the exact correct moment in SugarFree's stories. BestUsedCarSales, I have never suggested this to any sentient being, be they human or otherwise, yet here I am suggesting this to you and you alone with specific regards to your comment Everything happens for a reason at the exact correct moment in SugarFree's stories.
Here is the suggestion: Read more stories by SugarFree. I know, Switzy, I know. I like my kids. Universities should be selling education, not social justice and that is Suthen's point. Or you really want to pay extra for the Nathan Treatment? We can be sorry about Melanie's pain, and advocate for the university to provide her whatever help she needs That sounds like the sort of evil Chris Kyle talks about fighting in Iraq. Melanie was triggered formerly known as "freaked the fuck out", but now known to be entirely the fault of banal external stimuli.
Did that get you hard? Maybe you do, maybe you don't, but sorting your stuff out while also dating isn't easy for anyone involved. Always have a false identity, and an escape route. I think once your on your third Irish twin you can brag about your fertility. I meant You're for the first your there. Stupid autocorrect and lack of edit functionality. How many of your children with your current partner are black or Asian? Her transition was one of the reasons yeah, i can't quite imagine the alternate universe where that qualifies as 'a reason'.
Every conversation doesn't need to be laborious. Women just seem to prefer it that way. Shooter sent Facebook message to Breitbart's Milo Yiannopoulos before gunfire at UW protest, police say The man who told police he shot and wounded another man during a violent demonstration over the appearance of Milo Yiannopoulos at the University of Washington sent a social-media message to the Breitbart News editor just an hour before the shooting.
Samie Frites, a nursing assistant who said he had gone to the protest "to make sure nobody got hurt," said he saw a man pull "something out of his coat and started firing these little projectiles into the crowd. Samie Frites, a nursing assistant who said he had gone to the protest "to make sure nobody got hurt "I yelled at him to stop," Frites said. You did all you could, Samie.
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